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well good afternoon and welcome to this

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afternoon or evenings James's Colman

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memorial event

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I'm Andrew after the

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the muted

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I'm also the interim director of our

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African Studies center so it's an honor

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and a privilege to introduce the artist

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filmmaker videographer writer and in my

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opinion neo situationist Xena Sara Lila

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whose performance lecture film whirring

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the masks the politics of authenticity

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and contemporaneity in the worlds of

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African art is available on YouTube

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through our Center website it's been

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showing since Saturday and it will be

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showing through the week so you have

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time to see it if you haven't seen it

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yet we are indeed fortunate to be

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hosting Sarah wheeler this year and next

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year as our African Studies Center's

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affiliated artist in residence and we

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look forward to several productive and

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exciting collaborations even a sampling

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of Sarah we was extraordinary of takes

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up a lot of time as it not only spans

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media formats and genres but resolutely

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destabilizes or in her term worries the

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distinctions between them generating

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aesthetic trajectories that take hold

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and also take off her own worlds of

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African art span Nigeria and the afro

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Atlantic including Dakar London Bahia

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New York Houston and now Los Angeles to

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name a few cartographic landing points

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as the founding filmmaker of Alton

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Hollywood which redeploys this

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vernacular film industry to turn it and

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the world on its head her artistic

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practice as she calls it includes the

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boys quarters project space in Port

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Harcourt a gallery from local niger

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delta artists it also includes the

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illicit Gian Institute a kind of

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conceptual craft distillery which

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produces palm wine G in within the

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cultural ecology of niger delta history

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and also the niger delta traditional art

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research drive which revisits dying

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delta masking traditions within

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contemporary aesthetic registers and

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recently it featured the work of a bony

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sculptor chromis Lee Geary who's worked

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figures prominently in the lecture film

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that you saw or will see the performance

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lecture film and also in today's

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discussion

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zena's many films include basta the new

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wave hello Nigeria this is my Africa

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which portrays the continent from the

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standpoint of Africans in London and

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deliverance of comfort

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Perrault Nollywood film with sci-fi

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overtones about a child which and have

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showed at the Toronto International Film

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Festival this is my Africa when the best

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documentary short at the International

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black document in 2008 and was later

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licensed by HBO

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zena's video art installations include

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table manners at our own Fowler Museum

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at UCLA as well as installations for her

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solo museum exhibit did you know we

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taught them how to dance at the bluffer

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Art Museum at the University of Houston

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eaten by the heart exploring afro

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Atlantic love and heartbreak and Sarah

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Guam morning

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as for fiction and criticism read Lola

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of the red oil or his eyes were shining

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like a child in sable lit mag and no

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going back the latter appearing in

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Pietro Hugo's volumes Nollywood

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photographs add to this a few

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distinctions like being named one of the

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top 25 leaders of your African

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Renaissance in The Times of London being

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selected one of the global thinkers in

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2016 by foreign policy magazine and

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receiving a John Simon Guggenheim Award

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in fine arts in 2017 one only gets the

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sense of her power originality and

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impact today the technology God's

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willing you will experience it for you

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for yourselves and ourselves so before

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shifting to our discussion my thanks to

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the International Institute at UCLA for

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supporting this series and to our

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African Study Center staff Erica Andrew

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the deputy director Sheila breeding

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Leslie Jones of Howard and Grace Stanley

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for bringing together the complex pieces

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of this event to fruition thanks also to

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all of her Chen and Alex you of the

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International Institute whose technical

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wizardry really borders on the occult

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even when it fails today's discussion

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between Zena and myself followed by Q&A

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is based on Zena Sarah we was masterful

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performance lecture film that we've

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talked alluded to earlier worrying the

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masks the politics of authenticity and

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contemporaneity

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in the worlds of African art please feel

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free also to use the chat box to post

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questions unfortunately given the

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numbers were happy to see the

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registrations gone through the roof that

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we won't be able to answer everybody

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we're also trying to gain fluency in

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this technological mode of communication

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and interaction so there's still a

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learning curve ahead of me in this

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respect and also

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mentioned that I will be showing some

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video clips well from the performance

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film lecture and I'm going to be asking

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questions based on those clips so what

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I'll do is ask Xena the question and

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when there's a clip I'll show the clip

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and then close the question again

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because it's hard to hold all of that

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information in one's head over that time

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period so in any case greetings Xena

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thank you for opening our eyes and for

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challenging our minds and before I

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launch into questions would you have

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anything you would like to add say thank

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you so much for inviting me to do this

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last year the film is based on an essay

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that I wrote last year it was supposed

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to be just a gallery notes for the show

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the promise llegará show that I put up

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and then it sort of metastasized into

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kind of like museological manifesto

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history of agony history of agony and

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then sort of wound up being uh some sort

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of like ghost story so instead of us

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that this weird little I couldn't really

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understand it but I knew that I had to

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go through all the motions and the fact

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that you read it ten thousand five

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hundred words and you just read it so

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quickly and you got back to me so I

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think it was literally 48 hours and you

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got back to me I was really touched by

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that and so I'm really grateful for this

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opportunity

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and even though I'm sad not to be in an

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auditorium with you know and seeing

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everyone's faces I'm actually really

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excited at the opportunity to really put

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this together and also to go through my

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archive of almost a million photographs

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over the years from 2013 to be able to

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like actually show you some of these

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images that I live with that I don't

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like sell or I don't show as actual

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artworks but they are energy pieces that

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really have transported me so I'm really

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happy to be able to like put them in

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there and also to activate some of my

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video artwork within the context of the

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film so it's been an honor really to be

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able to put this together so thank you

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thank you so much really

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so my first question it's a little wordy

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it's the only long question in my list

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and

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[Music]

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I'm going to show two clips to

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illustrate the two contexts that the

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question addresses and then I'm going to

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come back to the question again so if

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the audience will bear with us this is

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probably the more verbose of the

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questions coming up so zina your lecture

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film navigates many portals that take us

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through space-time place spirit worlds

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history remembering forgetting framed by

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your homeland of O'Neill and so before

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we jump through these portals I'd like

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to start by asking you about two

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important art worlds in your homeland

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two contexts that introduce the complex

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dialectics of authenticity in your film

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the first concerns the world of

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festivals as performed by local

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communities the second the boy scores

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quarters project space where you

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exhibited the masks carved by promise

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lookee here II and it's clear that you

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reject the idea that masks performed in

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the villages are somehow more authentic

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than those featured in your exhibit but

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how do you see their connective tissue

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so what I'm going to do now is attempt

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to call up the video so bear with me

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dear friends and dear friends from all

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over the world by the way and from

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Nigeria and from Africa and from Europe

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and Asia thank you so much some of you

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were staying up late at night and we

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really love you and to my you're about

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brothers and sisters muta-do muy lame-o

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King Koopa like ah Bogany okay so

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clip number one coming up bear with me

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Christianity in Islam are powerful

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forces and monotheistic religions do

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challenge the existence of this type of

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work

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in fact promise regularly field visits

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from Agora evangelicals who urge him to

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end his heathen practice many talented

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attorney Carver's have given up their

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practice because they became Christian

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but there is much complexity in the

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dance between belief and one supreme god

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and the polyphony of Animus spirits of

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our heritage there are multiple

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syncretic performances of faith in

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Nigeria belief is not so clear-cut

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responses therefore to our traditional

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masks are varied but bringing them into

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the white cheap space draws out these

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conversations and opens up the psychic

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and storytelling space around these

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works this view is supported by boys

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quarters gallery manager do me for there

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these masts and figurines are viewed as

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more accessible within the gallery the

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superstitions fear and secrecy

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surrounding masks are diffused it

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becomes a work of art and not something

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to be afraid of here in the gallery

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people have the peace to enjoy it

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there's more of a relationship and

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closeness you can even have selfies with

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the work people are enjoying it as art

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while you show you got that by my

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253

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it's the kind of mirroring one sees in

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in the gallery itself and the way people

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interpolate themselves into the

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aesthetic frames and I that to me is

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it's an active productive process and I

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guess to reframe my question how how do

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you compare this context contemporary

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contexts clearly as are the festivals

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and the villages are contemporary as

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well how do you how do you compare those

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that the genres of participation and

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basically interpolation of how people

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put themselves in and see themselves in

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the through the eyes of the other I mean

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the participation thing is in the

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gallery context it's a function of the

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fact that people love selfies in Nigeria

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it's always that that culture is

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incredible if you go on you know

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Facebook if you have a lot of Nigerian

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friends on Facebook and you know which

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one I joined in Nigeria and you know the

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kind of people love like they submit

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multiple photographs from the same shoot

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of themselves in different positions and

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it's it's glorious I actually collect

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them I think they're fantastic so that's

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partly what we do that's just a

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naturally you know something that we

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enjoy doing so you know that is drawn

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out of us and it's presented in the

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white sheep space as well and also when

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you're in the kind of you know I was

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gonna say carnival but it's like it's

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very different from carnival and

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masquerade it's not because not quite

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parade it's this kind of like cell

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that's moving around and you know and

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you're kind of thrill you're thrilled

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around this cell there's a it's about

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thrill in this way and no you're not

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connecting with like the curve of the

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cheek on a mask you're not connecting

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with it in that way it's a completely

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different kind of aesthetic and so you

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know it does particularly that has a

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particular job in that context but just

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because the person that either

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commissioned it all carved it did it for

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that particular purpose doesn't mean it

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doesn't have other purposes right so I

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feel like objects like this you know

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referred to them as children you know

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this idea of you know these masks it

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necessary belong to the parents that

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made them and that's what it's like when

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you're a parent you know you made this

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choice you know own that child that

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child is his or her own person or their

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own person and you don't control that

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and so

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and they can move and they can be and

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they can exist in many other ways and

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that's what's so exciting about I think

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these kinds of this kind of production

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and the thing is that that's why I'm not

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you know I describe myself as literally

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an iconoclast in that sense or not I

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like to worry tradition I'm not I'm okay

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fine that's tradition but I always have

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something to say about it and I'm I want

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to disrupt it I'm not not a

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traditionalist in any way shape or form

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so I'm very interested in seeing what

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this thing is but it's it's it's that

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it's so much more it's more than even

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how it's you know how it exists in the

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African in the what a fail it's a be a

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go any context it's more than that and

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that's what's really exciting and that's

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where this is the uncharted territory it

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hasn't gone to thank you

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I'm going to move look a little bit

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ahead I want to look at the problem look

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at the whole question of of a power

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object and what makes objects powerful

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and I'm going to it's one of my dive

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into questions in the film I know I know

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there with me as I go try this again

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what is a powerful piece of art

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when we say that in the West it means

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the piece of art that has moved you it

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has moved your emotional perhaps changed

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your mind but when people talk of a

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powerful piece of art in the sense of

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the power objects in Africa it takes on

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a whole other register of implications

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is the power purely in the aesthetics or

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in the way it may have been charged

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spiritually is there an overlap must it

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be visually striking to set the magic

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off or other chants and spells and

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sacrifices enough to do the job

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this Jana's faced ontology I think

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aesthetics do matter and there is power

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and divinity in elision in lines

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connecting portals somehow you know it

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when you see it you feel it

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lovely so again that's one of a very

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powerful clip and part of the film so

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this really interests me a lot what I'm

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curious about is how we can rethink

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through this kind of a framework the

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idea of the work of art as a labor

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rather than as an object instead of a

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mask as being an object scored and

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archived in a museum collection it can

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be seen as performing a kind of work

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even when it is stored and archived in a

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museum it's still doing a kind of work

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and when it's coming out into the public

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you it's doing a kind of work when

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images of those masses circulate they're

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doing a kind of work and at the same

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time one can also see artwork as what in

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the us-south used to be called route

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work which was the work of so-called

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Congo specializing in enroute medicines

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during the plantation days of US history

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which may not be over yet but we're

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working on it and I just wonder how you

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know you can how you activate this this

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perspective on an artistic agency in

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effect how you give agency to the

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objects themselves this is this morning

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this clip came out as me at me as being

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possibly the most important I mean

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there's a lot of important stuff in this

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film but this is one really important

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clip from you it's like a link to a lot

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of future work and you know I sometimes

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make this work I don't know what I'm

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doing I'm sort of tunneling the work I

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don't always understand it until later

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right and so that's kind of this clip

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came at me this morning in terms of okay

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work how do we how does an art work do

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its work so it's inkless it in its

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design right it's but also it's

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activated by what is the right I mean

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they're kind of scaffolding around it

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that's as important when I was you know

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becoming an artist it's always this

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thing about you know it's when I speak

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to people who are say photographers when

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an artist or designers and artists it's

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like what is that difference and it's

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the difference of the kind of

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storytelling that you're able to weave

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and so for me a really powerful artist

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is someone that can own the color blue

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how do you own the color blue how do you

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own the color black or vantablack

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how do you know how do you own a

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conversation that's kind of what the

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work of what like artists try and do you

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know a mess and that's to do with the

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architecture so there's a lot to do with

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that so sometimes it's your race

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sometimes it's agenda that will allow

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you to like control a conversation of

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control an idea of course you know you

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can be like hit back and they can be

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activism against that and so that's

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gonna transform how someone who's an

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opposite racial gender or what have you

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or an alternative racial gender to kind

433

of you know that will also frame how you

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see or understand something so it's this

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kind of like war of frameworks and war

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about you know even kind of miniature

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ontology is that you know worried

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against each other in some way so that's

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a lot sooner that I do think I've said

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that geography doesn't matter but it

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kind of does in some ways because not in

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terms of geography but in terms of sight

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so you know I've got this thing I don't

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know what I kind of I'm I have to tell

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you I'm just I'm not sure about from

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brands like I didn't use iam I just

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think it's that's the problem I think

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that maybe it's the white cube so I'm a

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you know I like the way to you I'm

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interested in the white key when I when

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I first went to Nigeria and I before I

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did that I would do these little

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articulations on the streets and like

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you know just do this bullshit on the

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street it's like doing that import I

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thought you know making little

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particulates in the street let my little

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art vomit say no no absolutely there's

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too much noise going on anyway and

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that's a second seatin of me to think

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that the white cube that was actually

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the most radical thing I could do in

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that space you know dedicated space that

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was not transactional that was not about

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commerce and make it devoid of any kind

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of like noise and in that sense there's

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so much of that

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so the white Kubis is actually beautiful

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to void space and empty space that

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anything you put in it you have to you

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have to think about it differently we're

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forced to consider it differently so for

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me the white space is interesting

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however this white space the police

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force awaits for base because it's

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transformed my father's office and it

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had a history of mainly writers coming

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in and actors what happened you know

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coming in and discussing and it was also

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a commercial space so Bay's histories

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are also working and so I think that's

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what's really interesting security

483

484

breaking up a little bit

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so as you know you're breaking up baby

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yeah there's a museum oh sorry

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the my internet is unstable apparent so

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I do you think it's take I do its

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history there and I talked about you

490

have to Sir John Mick and colonial kind

491

of like layers that are embedded in the

492

storytelling law and I don't know how

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you do that actually within such a

494

museum I feel like you have to take it

495

out and put it in a way you stays oh you

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know like for example what's a name

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Carol Walker did that you know how

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beautiful the sugar my mother the mother

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sorry sugar baby the succulents and the

500

big figure that she did you know I just

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think that you know doing that in a

502

factory there's no those layers you know

503

there's so much you can do there's like

504

so many exciting propositions that we

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can do but I just think that when you

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put it in that space when you put it in

507

a particular inside museum you're saying

508

something very very you know it you know

509

you're gonna have to work and work

510

against that history so I mean I'm sure

511

there's very sexy exciting ways of

512

pushing back against that within that

513

space potentially so I'm not saying you

514

can't do something there but you have

515

you are always in conversation with the

516

site so that's definitely going to be a

517

part of it a slightly put on your

518

question but I hope I've answered no

519

direction but I want to just bring it

520

back on the figure of the of the the

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Jana's faced ontology and many

522

sculptures and figurines and icons and

523

motifs that are both verbal as well as

524

visual throughout certainly the West

525

African aesthetics that I know I'm

526

familiar with where you have figures

527

looking in

528

opposite directions it can be forward

529

and back it can be left and right and

530

sometimes be up and down and I wonder if

531

you can unpack the the work being done

532

and or the just the dimensionality of

533

that vector itself cool so my what I

534

said

535

all these artworks very live right and

536

they exist in one way in particular

537

particular site and they can exist in

538

other ways in different spaces in

539

different contexts and with different

540

spells and incantations and storytelling

541

surrounding it and you know and I think

542

in a sense that's what I mean by because

543

we're trying to remember when I called

544

you in the beginning and I also speak to

545

Erica P Jones what does that thing works

546

like it's you know you know we talk

547

about power and power powerful art where

548

it's like oh it can harm the person

549

that's intended to harm or whatever but

550

at the same time it's a powerful piece

551

of art and it changes how you feel what

552

is you know but it's the same thing

553

that's why I ended up with Janus face

554

ontology because it is this it's the

555

same thing with different heads on

556

either end so that's culture so you know

557

when it rises to the surface but yeah

558

there's a cultural performance but it's

559

still the same thing so there are going

560

to be multiple cultural performances

561

literally in different countries

562

different places different sites but

563

it's still the same thing I think I was

564

think about art you know when it

565

retreats and it's just it's it's on its

566

own and it's not filtered through us

567

what is art without us viewing it you

568

know what is it on its own what is what

569

is that entity and you know my thing

570

right now is I'm always thinking in

571

terms of I think of ideas as aliens as

572

beings you know they're actually actual

573

beings and the sometimes they come

574

through to us but they are all their own

575

being we don't own it we're not a part

576

of it it's just up to us to shape it but

577

it's its own being I can just build on

578

that a bit because in anthropology

579

there's been a lot of work we fairly

580

recently under the rubric of the

581

ontological turn where anthropologists

582

are trying to get away from interpreting

583

some cultural phenomenon or perspective

584

in relation to some bedrock reality

585

like social structure political action

586

but rather to accept the terms of the of

587

a given world and then figure out what's

588

possible and not possible within it and

589

from what you've said about the miss

590

Jana's face

591

ontology is that it's it's a kind of

592

it's almost like a wormhole in Star Trek

593

where it's the channel through which you

594

go from one of these contexts you just

595

talked about to another mmm alright

596

looks very different the performance

597

looks very different but as you say it's

598

the same thing it's and I wonder whether

599

there's also temporality facilitated

600

through this portal or portal the

601

wormhole be the idea that you can access

602

the past into the present or even if

603

you're a good diviner or if you're good

604

you know someone who can do you found

605

even it you you bring the future into

606

the present and you can then re dress a

607

bad future that is coming in if you

608

perform a certain kind of sacrifice at

609

the babalao it tells you to do do we

610

arrange the future before it happens so

611

I see these and I'm wondering whether

612

this Jana's face structure can

613

accommodate that kind of it kind I'm

614

actually gonna go in a slightly

615

different direction because it just came

616

into my mind and this concerts been

617

really fluid for me right now and I'm

618

having a hard time kind of like locking

619

it down but what it is is that okay you

620

know when I talk to me end about

621

it doesn't matter whether the thing that

622

happened to me after visiting I visited

623

an art collectors home in Park Avenue

624

and the next morning I had a really

625

terrifying spiritual experience right

626

and it's not the idea of whether it's

627

true whether it's just a thought that I

628

thought that it might be so that

629

distinction the actual truth of it or

630

the feeling that it was true you know so

631

it did its work anyway right this thing

632

of like thinking that it might do that

633

suggestion meaning that it's done it's

634

fun what it was supposed to do but it

635

has done what you know would it imagine

636

that it could do so there's this thing

637

of power and power is that power and

638

power again you know so I don't know how

639

it would function in you know if someone

640

was like using a power object to enact

641

something and it would have a very

642

direct effect and in the way that it's

643

you know carried out or choreographed

644

with the choreography is gonna be

645

different in a different place you know

646

so but it's still the same thing so this

647

one's a slippery one it's really hard

648

when I'm gonna be honest and I haven't

649

really fully drilled down to this but

650

I'm excited that I haven't drilled down

651

because I just think that the process

652

and the work are drilling down into this

653

particular idea is and this is where

654

it's exciting you know this is where

655

this kind of work needs to take us you

656

know this is like physic this is you

657

know this is really exciting stuff this

658

is the the philosophy and the

659

information and the cosmic this is the

660

area that I actually found way more

661

interesting I'm not interested in just

662

like okay this was used to do this and

663

we plot you know when I either when I'm

664

talking about oh we use this for

665

planting season some good good luck you

666

know that is not what we're supposed to

667

be doing I'll say it but that's like

668

let's just the performance a service

669

performance of what this mask is all

670

about this like world's underneath it

671

there are worlds underneath this and the

672

fact that all we have is the

673

conversation about this is what these

674

people think that this mask will do and

675

then in the Western sense this belong to

676

Helena Rubinstein and this belong to you

677

know and those are the two stories were

678

telling excuse me know there are more

679

stories than this right there are more

680

stories let's submit to the work let's

681

submit to this art and then we start to

682

tear things apart

683

it's just like all these wormholes is

684

you say it opened up when we have that

685

conversation mm-hmm no I'm excited by

686

this too but I think this is where new

687

research can go mm-hmm both in terms of

688

our practice but also in terms of

689

philosophy and this is what

690

object-oriented ontology is kind of

691

doing for me I just see it is like the

692

flip side of animism you know it's just

693

like you know in Africa we've been knew

694

this as they say I'm on the internet we

695

would be new so like you know trees all

696

the rivers having some sort of like you

697

know identity of their own and some sort

698

of you know a vitality in the life force

699

of their own you know so it's this you

700

know it's kind of to me like a really

701

interesting conversation that's the same

702

thing and that's where we're going and

703

also in this time of covert and this

704

time we're like the earth is asserting

705

itself when we've been quiet and you

706

know this sense that you know being

707

quiet and listening to listening to

708

animals or watching how they're just

709

like coming back and if we are quiet and

710

we let the rest of the world speak

711

there's always you know there's there's

712

there are multiple universes on the

713

earth you know you mentioned kovin and

714

the crisis and

715

parallel sort of thought process to what

716

you described when you say it wasn't

717

that this affliction in the art dealers

718

or the collectors house or apartment was

719

real but the fact that the possibility

720

it was real and and I think of this you

721

know I've been involved with climate

722

change and you know the we've all

723

experienced an administration that has

724

rolled back the access to data rolled

725

back the regulations rolled back

726

everything to enable you know the big

727

carbon companies to just make as much

728

money as they can and at the expense of

729

the world and I'm not you know I I

730

consider myself to be a realist whatever

731

that means but it does occur to me that

732

this virus is a way of earth saying all

733

right you've tried and failed you're not

734

you're not you're not cooling the planet

735

so we're gonna we're gonna evolve these

736

little microchips in order to go ahead

737

and infect you guys slow down your

738

consumption slow down here your carbon

739

emissions allow you know bees to to come

740

back and you know you know you can hear

741

the birds now they're chirping more than

742

ever it's it's putting capitalism fast

743

capitalism on hold so I think these

744

things are in an interesting way it's

745

worth considering together I honestly do

746

um I'd love to go on and that theme but

747

I just want to cover a couple of bases

748

see them piling up to them in a second

749

so a few other things you clearly

750

demonstrate how African masks serve as

751

vehicles of European storytelling in

752

your in your piece I'm wondering what

753

the parallel vehicles of African

754

storytelling may be or is their efficacy

755

predicated on more of a non narrative

756

logic or technology of you use can you

757

solve that again I'm really sorry I was

758

distracted by the question so yeah it's

759

it's really the question of how you make

760

the case very clearly that Africa

761

masks are service vehicles of European

762

storytelling the how do we understand

763

and you may not like the idea of looking

764

at the other side in terms of in what

765

ways can they serve as vehicles of

766

African storytelling or is their

767

efficacy predicated on non-narrative

768

logics and technologies of use well I'm

769

gonna show my ass and just say I do

770

think we need to have a much more

771

explicit form of storytelling I just do

772

I mean maybe there are all these other

773

technologies at work but do the African

774

storytelling force perhaps I concede

775

that in the film but in the meantime I

776

would like to see more explicit and

777

scaffolding in terms of African

778

storytelling around it because I you

779

know partly it's racism definitely I

780

would say in terms of like you know

781

minimizing the African story and just

782

thinking well they're not that

783

interesting and just only understanding

784

the surface and not

785

and not worrying the Silence of the

786

Africans when they won't tell you and

787

they don't tell you anything you know

788

that kind of silence and assuming

789

there's a lack of knowledge and not

790

understanding that it's Fredman

791

but then you know yes we have you know

792

you talk about secrets so learn secrets

793

or secret I love that phrase this idea

794

of like okay fine we and we host these

795

secrets but at the same time it's you

796

know then they still go off and are able

797

to you know tell the story of the object

798

in their perspective and you owned it

799

and that's what they care about it

800

becomes that you know the value is

801

raised in that way so you know I just so

802

that's why I feel that there is there is

803

a problem in that sense and I do I want

804

to see I want to see more storytelling I

805

do I do want it's more kind of like

806

written explicit or through art you know

807

art making and curating that kind of

808

storytelling around it

809

I say from African perspective but you

810

know it could be anyone in the sense

811

telling that story but what you have to

812

have is the heart you have to have the

813

kind of openness and the vulnerability

814

to the people and the work and that's

815

the thing that I think is going to be a

816

bit of a leak for certain people that

817

you know when you're faced with a maybe

818

you're not as literate artists in the

819

village creating these carving works

820

they're not like though you know they're

821

not like a you know internet

822

international artist that lives in Lagos

823

or whatever you know that goes to be an

824

owl's around the world it's not that

825

we're going to the village right how are

826

you gonna relate to that person and what

827

I'm having to start telling you in this

828

in this film that you have to relate to

829

the person as if they are you equal

830

because people are not relationship that

831

equal they aren't they don't look at

832

them and think that this person is that

833

equal they don't think that so you in

834

effect are have become a storyteller

835

regarding promise lagoons work to some

836

extent and I wonder how the datas of his

837

art is understood in Nigeria what kind

838

of stories do people tell about his work

839

that you have to dialogue with to get

840

your points across honest with you I

841

wasn't to know what's in their hearts

842

and minds I don't know

843

I'll tell you there's nothing that I

844

literally can't tell you what they deep

845

down thought to this I don't know and

846

promise hasn't spoken to you and as if

847

you can get hold of him because in the

848

village it's kind of hard to get you

849

know it's hard to get old women also

850

even trying to track him down sometimes

851

you know there's a lot of violence in a

852

girl and and so I don't think right now

853

he's not actually at home when I asked

854

some people to do this filming they had

855

to set up because violins that had taken

856

place you know this you know all this

857

stuff is really real so it's kind of

858

it's it's tenuous me trying to put this

859

thing together as it's dangerous and

860

it's tenuous but I don't know so I'm

861

doing this storytelling but it's also I

862

mean he's Facebook but you know I still

863

promise on Facebook so I think he is

864

there somewhere but I don't know what

865

the I have never seen a facebook update

866

from well I'm getting signals from from

867

our bosses that we need to you know

868

transitions has open things up and get

869

to other questions I'm not going to ask

870

that question on restitution I was

871

planning and repatriation because that

872

that one is that will come up when it

873

comes up and I'm not going to ask you

874

about how to some extent your what I

875

call your kind of eco aesthetics relates

876

to the legacy of your father's eco

877

politics I'll let that one come up when

878

it does or if it does but I want to ask

879

about this wonderful figure of speech

880

you use when you describe certain masks

881

and figurines as microchips of Negritude

882

it's one of my favorite phrases in your

883

piece and I wonder if you could expand

884

on that designation and what I like

885

about your discussion is that you are

886

again it's kind of Janus faced it's

887

located at the intersection of a Western

888

discourse of Negritude and a more afro

889

centric as in non euro centric notion of

890

what what after Kennedy is in microchip

891

it's a technology and say it's a wiring

892

it's linked to a network can you can you

893

riff on that this is thing about

894

essentialism in a way right it doesn't

895

look like

896

I always think in terms of okay we have

897

contemporary African art that exists

898

already we've got all these amazing

899

artists doing beautiful work and I put

900

some my favorites up there in the film

901

you know who are making work in the West

902

and it within in different paradigms and

903

formats not making the kind of

904

traditional or you know some of it is

905

votive worship kind of making but not

906

all of it is but whatever it's a

907

different kind of making altogether but

908

it's just like it's a very unique

909

practice so how do we relate this to the

910

rest of it why does it still matter and

911

for me I when I thought about it I just

912

like you know what because that is you

913

know this is when you're channeling

914

completely and you're not like

915

considering other people you're not they

916

say there is something okay and I hate

917

that because it means that I'm saying

918

that it's okay that it's like there is a

919

some there is an essence but there is an

920

essence but it's a seat and then the

921

seed transforms and you know expresses

922

itself differently in different parts of

923

the world itself one way in Peru or in

924

by ear or in New Orleans or canhe to you

925

and Cuba you know it's just you know in

926

London it's just different how this

927

expresses itself but it's a you know

928

there is something you there isn't we

929

know there's something unique about

930

Negritude you know we are unique and we

931

along we scare there's an energy that we

932

thrill it is that thing you know when

933

people are sort of bit of a afraid of

934

black people you know I'm like yeah I

935

get it

936

I kind of understand it I remember

937

they're coming from like yeah there is

938

this thing there is this like aliveness

939

in this loudness that's just like it's

940

true and I like to lean into stereotypes

941

I'm like hmm let's lean into it let's

942

look at that let's not be afraid of it

943

let's not run away what is that about

944

and we don't know anything that

945

spiritual technologies we don't know

946

what frequencies or we're actually as

947

people live sitting on we didn't know

948

those frequencies and once we start to

949

have a language that can deal with this

950

invisible world which deals with

951

invisible vibrations all these things we

952

can suddenly see oh my god that's the

953

vibration and magnitude oh my god that's

954

this vibration and once you start to see

955

that then we'll start to understand

956

what's actually happening so I do you

957

think that the masks with

958

means a really sure expression of this

959

but that doesn't mean that you know we

960

have to keep doing that in order to be

961

authentic you know it's a seed nice well

962

that's a lovely note for us to end our

963

conversation on I'd like to carry it

964

further but we've got some nice

965

questions coming up great you want to

966

take just go through yourself yeah okay

967

thank you too tender woodsy sorry if I

968

pronounced it wrong thank you for your

969

time and condolences for your recent

970

loss thank you my question has to do

971

with colonial gatekeeping I don't think

972

gatekeeping should be directed at

973

oneself or at other African artists are

974

just is erudite or not I think deciding

975

what is and isn't art in reference to

976

African objects as colonial absorption

977

how do we move around this judgment

978

Spade do you have an answer for that

979

Andy it's a great question um what is

980

art and what isn't I mean in a way

981

that's what I was trying to dissolve in

982

a sense you know dissolving the kind of

983

you know this idea of artifact and art

984

and just saying that actually you have

985

to go into the space and sort of you

986

know I don't not all not all car bizarre

987

artists you know that people who carve

988

isn't mean they're artists but I also

989

think that not everyone you know who's

990

an artist in the West and calls himself

991

an artist because they went to art

992

school they're showing gallery doesn't

993

mean that they make transcendental work

994

it doesn't so I like I said you know it

995

when you feel it you know it when you

996

see it you feel it that's the thing that

997

we talk about so for me that's how you

998

move around it about a certain kind of

999

openness to the work and being

1000

vulnerable to work that's you know

1001

that's something that I'm really really

1002

interested in that's an area I'd like to

1003

move into a little bit more and I think

1004

we're thinking a lot about where does

1005

the art world go from here or now and

1006

I'm actually gonna write about this I

1007

think this like meditating on

1008

traditional African art making is giving

1009

me so much information as to you know

1010

where art goes and what art is actually

1011

for and

1012

not flat like politicking l sort of like

1013

you know what aunty whoa kind of like

1014

storytelling you know it's like it's so

1015

much deeper than that we all have to go

1016

deeper and art can signal that and we

1017

have to let it respond to those signals

1018

so yes so I just think opening up to art

1019

in a particular way and changing the

1020

conversation around it and submitting to

1021

it and maybe the ceremonies around it

1022

needs to change you know the ceremony of

1023

the 6:00 to 8:00 p.m.

1024

opening and the ceremony of the private

1025

dinner but only certain people that

1026

might be invited for dinner but not

1027

others want advice from dinner the

1028

ceremony of the Biennale the ceremony of

1029

the Arts there these are all ceremonies

1030

around arts so are we going to think

1031

about different ceremonies that actor

1032

they are all makers respond to art in a

1033

different way so I think that's what it

1034

is think about the choreography of our

1035

responses to this spiritual activity

1036

which is what art is it should be how

1037

can we I hope what's the question how

1038

can we use the Benjamins and the

1039

Benjamins notion of the hora to think

1040

about

1041

Marilia I don't understand the question

1042

can you type it again please Marilia is

1043

one of my favorite students from Pratt

1044

okay to ten okay gasps Xena sorry can I

1045

ask one from it's a straightforward

1046

question coming from the other source

1047

okay we form that was this is from Ellen

1048

Pearlstein and the question is has

1049

promises worked and collected by any

1050

museums that as of this point okay she's

1051

an interesting question so the thing is

1052

that I said that he makes his work for

1053

people in the community right but then

1054

he actually has these people there's a

1055

one togolese diamonds and a house a man

1056

from the north and they actually buy

1057

work off him and they he doesn't talk he

1058

doesn't ask too many questions he

1059

doesn't want to disrupt that particular

1060

market of his but this work gets taken

1061

to francophone somewhere in francophone

1062

Africa Togo probably beyond and I'm

1063

presuming he gets sold to you that's

1064

where the majority of his work goes to

1065

it's not you know the market in Ogoni

1066

it's just like you know you until the

1067

mast dies that's me then you get a new

1068

one or if you want to commemorate

1069

something specific so it's not like in

1070

massive 1000 but he's got so much work

1071

because made him work for himself he's

1072

always making work that's why I see him

1073

as an artist he's got this like

1074

compulsion but it does get bought right

1075

let's say there is a market see who

1076

knows if some of the stuff that you see

1077

in museums or collectors aren't his work

1078

it may well be because also they liens

1079

say that oh this is very very old or

1080

this they have to do that in order to

1081

sell the work to make appealing to you

1082

know you know connoisseurs in the West

1083

you know so this is one of the things I

1084

really want you to do to launch a

1085

research project to find out what

1086

happens to these works you know this is

1087

a leaking of our cultural capital so for

1088

me it's very interesting to understand

1089

what has happened what is happening to

1090

it and but you know I'm not able to do

1091

that in this stuff I'm trying to

1092

fundraise or so this is something I

1093

would love to understand say a nossa to

1094

your question then it may well his work

1095

may well be but they wouldn't have his

1096

name attached to it and that's the

1097

problem as far as I'm concerned but no

1098

as far as I know he's um

1099

let me show he's been in is in the white

1100

queue slices voice forces

1101

want to give it another crack at Maria's

1102

question no I'll come back later my

1103

radius she knows me I'm interesting

1104

Walter Benjamin and the impact of

1105

commodification on the ritual context of

1106

African art which I think may pertain to

1107

her question because there's a kind of

1108

paradox in how commodified art gets

1109

refet a sized in ways that to some

1110

extent support many means position and

1111

in other respects defy it because what's

1112

you know can be created is is new aura

1113

even and then it raises the issue with

1114

promise just that you mentioned it's

1115

it's it's it's reproduced he reproduces

1116

the art he has a lot of it he makes a

1117

lot of carvings but it's not

1118

mechanically reproduced it is it's

1119

carved it's artistically but it also

1120

comes from a wellspring of his faith of

1121

course so it's a very fascinating

1122

problem for Benjamin's argument which i

1123

think is from what I just gathered from

1124

your filtering and I think the question

1125

is worth coming back to it even days

1126

from now but anyway yeah I mean the idea

1127

of crystallization in the best thing

1128

that's when I said at the end you know

1129

I'm not I don't know what people you

1130

know collects in Park Avenue whether

1131

they using their objects as a fetish

1132

précisément objects in the traditional

1133

anthropological sense you know it is

1134

better choice than the kind of Western

1135

art sense you know you know this idea it

1136

becomes a fetish and that's it this is

1137

the thing about the duality the Jamis

1138

thing exactly the same thing is really

1139

connected to because a lot of these

1140

fetish objects quote-unquote were

1141

products of Atlantic and European

1142

encounters that during the urges of the

1143

slave trade which is partly by Europeans

1144

became so obsessed with cities so

1145

freakin fetishes but that's another

1146

that's another discussion

1147

go ahead so interesting um Anna gurkha

1148

an ego huh

1149

you will dr. Mitchell showed very

1150

amazing mass now because do they have

1151

any younger apprentices who are learning

1152

their traditions if so what

1153

relationships they have to both

1154

traditional and new creations

1155

listy

1156

like it would be a very vital piece of

1157

the heritage if it exists so promise

1158

says he has a lot of problems retaining

1159

apprentices and a lot of people don't

1160

necessarily want to do it they don't see

1161

like a huge market for it and as I said

1162

Christianity is also this thing that it

1163

precludes you know it makes people feel

1164

as if they don't want to participate in

1165

that now if all that would go out the

1166

window if it seemed that people could

1167

make you know all those considerations

1168

would be thrown out the window in

1169

Nigeria if you know it seems that

1170

include make money so so my thing is

1171

that I want to make an intervention I do

1172

what I said I'm not sure about the

1173

workshop setup but I do want to make it

1174

easier for that you know to support

1175

apprentices and to support that moment

1176

in to support the ability for them to

1177

you know to dive into this and they can

1178

still be educated and you know still

1179

feel you know feed themselves to their

1180

families so that there does need to be

1181

some support for you know for

1182

apprentices that doesn't exist right now

1183

and I worry about what will happen -

1184

when Cronus goes it's really there's not

1185

that many carbons we think there's about

1186

eight left in a gurney and that's a bad

1187

number I think that might be an okay

1188

number I mean they're probably too many

1189

artists in the West I mean how many

1190

artists are there so everyone can have a

1191

career it's really hard so I'm not

1192

saying it has to be like millions and

1193

millions of Carver's but you know then I

1194

just feel like it should it should be

1195

respected and not eroded mission didn't

1196

have to fight in that way so um and is

1197

there any hope I'm sorry I've lost the

1198

quick something the question about um

1199

the newer forms and older forms I mean

1200

that's a we go to answers I think I

1201

forgot that bit and if say what

1202

relationship do they have to both

1203

traditional and new creation I mean

1204

traditional and new that's you know

1205

we're operating in a different

1206

ontological framework what is new what

1207

of tradition that moves differently

1208

having said that I am interested in

1209

pushing you know getting people to think

1210

a little bit differently this is really

1211

difficult territory because you know at

1212

the same time I respect what's happening

1213

but the only way you know why I was in

1214

token I'm very interested in stretching

1215

what

1216

dentists you might be even in the

1217

village you know that's that isn't I

1218

don't want there to be like oh let's

1219

experiment but it's only like you know

1220

Western artists or - poor artists or

1221

city artists that do the experimenting

1222

I'm like what would it be like about you

1223

know we experimented in the village like

1224

village experimentation what would that

1225

1226

well exact oh that's interesting to me

1227

but it's like it requires I try to do as

1228

a promise it's difficult it's not

1229

straightforward

1230

crazy tall horn and he thought about it

1231

he thought about it but there's lots of

1232

things - yeah so this is all really

1233

interesting territory that I'm hoping to

1234

like to think through but it's not this

1235

thing that's easy it's not

1236

straightforward it's not just that only

1237

I set up a workshop and let's like

1238

create a new industry no way

1239

that's not man is not my interest I

1240

don't want to go through it that way

1241

that's a lot more careful a lot more

1242

considered okay Robin pointer I have

1243

been communicating with a young sculptor

1244

in Nigeria who works in traditional

1245

carved sculpture had he can't 70 years

1246

ago he'd have been considered a master

1247

is there any hope that he and the artist

1248

addressed in the film might find

1249

clientele in order to make a living I

1250

really really hope so I think that me

1251

having this conversation about this work

1252

might open it up a bit more you know I

1253

think the conversation has been too

1254

closed in a sense you know and that's

1255

the function of having it in these kinds

1256

of spaces and you know I just that's

1257

what I was talking about the idea that

1258

these argument is displaying these

1259

objects in these particular places not

1260

and they don't perform as cultural

1261

capsule builders for Africans right and

1262

that's the problem if it's just about

1263

the European storytelling and it's in

1264

this kind of like framed in this site

1265

which is historically freighted in a

1266

particular way then that doesn't allow a

1267

lot of interest it doesn't see there's

1268

been there's not the suggestion that

1269

there's motility and suddenly exciting

1270

to be looked for when you're in Africa

1271

not really so so that's why that

1272

conversation has to change and I think

1273

this talk and this you know lecture film

1274

is all a part of it and other people

1275

making work around and writing around it

1276

hopefully will bring more interest about

1277

and I

1278

yeah and I do think it's really

1279

interesting but how do you live seventy

1280

years ago he would have been considered

1281

masculine today's like nothing and

1282

that's outrageous absolutely outrageous

1283

to me outrageous so yeah I do feel like

1284

we have to look at that again

1285

my sister Andy something very

1286

interesting about was it in March 20th

1287

what did it the thing I sent you and it

1288

was a yeah Mexico just repatriated a

1289

rare Europe sure to Nigeria but experts

1290

say it might actually be a cheap

1291

knockoff so these are the this is the

1292

thing that we have to start to tear

1293

apart and question and worry the

1294

foundations of those ideas like you know

1295

why it's a fake or not a fake or not

1296

valuable valuable you know these are the

1297

things that we have to start to think

1298

about and once you do that yes you do

1299

liberate more Carver's to become artists

1300

and they can make a living and they can

1301

inspire and they can create more

1302

conversations so so yeah that is my hope

1303

you know that we do find more clientele

1304

and actually I have to say when I last

1305

year even when I was showing all of the

1306

pictures of them promises raw works and

1307

I'm enjoying Shahrukh showing them raw

1308

before they've been smoked you know some

1309

people were like I love it raw that's

1310

you know I'm really interested in it

1311

just looking like that without any paint

1312

without it being smoked etc so I think

1313

it's entirely I do think it's entirely

1314

possible

1315

Judith Carney brilliant films you know

1316

they're moving thank you

1317

you mentioned mommy water but I don't

1318

recall seeing a sculpture of her in your

1319

film she was I wonder about its

1320

connection of art to environment

1321

specifically to mangrove environments

1322

the diurnal AB and flow of water through

1323

them the movement astrid that's what

1324

people see America's and whether you

1325

think this also relates to important

1326

point that these objects might have a

1327

job to do

1328

great question okay and so there was

1329

many water she's the one with the snake

1330

so if you see like a yellow woman with

1331

like like long hair on any of the masks

1332

with the snake that's many water and one

1333

of the pictures there where was it it

1334

was a bit where I talked about how I

1335

want to plant and grow seeds in a gurney

1336

land and anyway there's actually a man

1337

water priestess there and

1338

the mask there was also the home of

1339

snakes so she's everywhere in this film

1340

gia they're everywhere wind whistling

1341

and yeah I said she's very it's very

1342

interesting so I wonder about its

1343

connection of art to environments and

1344

that's this is the thing this is what

1345

you know the thing that are you I think

1346

this kind of art making does connect

1347

environmentalism and that's what I feel

1348

like it should be opportunity to have

1349

its discussion in Nigeria about our

1350

relationship to our environment and the

1351

way that a animism before Christianity

1352

kind of articulated and prescribed our

1353

relationship with the environment so I

1354

remember seeing this Christian book

1355

saying that if your child is very

1356

interested in forests or trees this is a

1357

real problem this means that they've

1358

been like possessed by spirits so it's

1359

just like okay so operation shared

1360

environment and this is I couldn't you

1361

know a Christian sort of a pamphlet and

1362

so it makes you sort of wonder about

1363

okay so and also this like interest in a

1364

lot of people don't want to go rains in

1365

Nigeria they didn't necessarily like

1366

figurines in the house they don't want

1367

objects or figures of people they don't

1368

want that in the house and I'm not

1369

judging them to be honest with you

1370

because you know some of this stuff has

1371

an energy so I get it so but they don't

1372

necessarily want that in the house of

1373

this kind of aren't making seen as a

1374

threat but for me the problem is is that

1375

it encompasses so much for our

1376

relationship with the environment so we

1377

need to use to have a conversation about

1378

this and use it to have this

1379

conversation and yes many water does she

1380

I mean running water so I mean if you

1381

noticed but his shrine is the most

1382

interesting thing ever is that there's

1383

there's like so much work and the image

1384

of his shrine which had had like a coma

1385

force and you had all these drink

1386

bottles and then a picture of someone

1387

who looks Indonesian so and it's what's

1388

interesting is that you know the idea of

1389

man water is that you know she's kind of

1390

also partly inspired by the figure of

1391

the woman that would be at the front of

1392

the ship so I think probably the

1393

Portuguese ships that would have come

1394

around so they'd see this like beautiful

1395

woman at the head of the ship and so I

1396

was at the bow at the very front and so

1397

the energy isn't actually necessarily

1398

African

1399

however issues syncretized would kind of

1400

python goddesses there as well it's like

1401

a singles it's a single just them both

1402

in that particular area of nigeria so

1403

you know there is a connection between

1404

the two so yeah she is the goddess of

1405

and it's weird because it's not you know

1406

in Europe and I know you have all

1407

shoulders of sweet water and not the sea

1408

cousin the sea is your mantra but you

1409

know with us it's like okay we have

1410

rivers and within this man water

1411

figurine came also from from the high

1412

seas and from an from Asia probably from

1413

India actually so it's like a fusion of

1414

it and it's not like Oshun and Yemaya

1415

effusion abortion Yemanja it's like the

1416

river the sweet water as well as the

1417

high seas kind of fused together and it

1418

is about the kind of python mangrove

1419

cults mixed with this international club

1420

isn't internationalism baked in to our

1421

spiritual heritage and i think that's

1422

very interesting but yes it connects to

1423

the land that connects the waters in it

1424

you know all of those things are

1425

connected and so I do think that we need

1426

to use this as an opportunity to open

1427

things up and the fear that's there this

1428

is a very real fear and I get it but we

1429

need to start to open this conversation

1430

up and start to think about our

1431

relationships the environment and how if

1432

you want to take it out of that if you

1433

want to surgically remove it from this

1434

religious way of thinking but allow it

1435

to live within Christianity safely then

1436

you know let's let's let's look at that

1437

because it's just a real shame that

1438

interest in the natural world in that

1439

way is seen as like problematic and yeah

1440

so that's what I want this work to be

1441

doing this is the conversation we should

1442

be having I don't want it to go back

1443

into a sort of traditional conversation

1444

about oh this is what it has been used

1445

for traditionally no let's drag it out

1446

even from where it's been used

1447

traditionally in Nigeria and within

1448

Nigeria use it to have expansive

1449

conversations and think about things and

1450

beat back a superstition and beat back

1451

kind of like taboo beat it or back and

1452

let come on let's us have this

1453

discussion what are we actually afraid

1454

of here

1455

what are these powers were thinking what

1456

is going on you know we have to

1457

challenge ourselves and use this work to

1458

do that and I think it's I think it's

1459

right for that but can I weigh in for a

1460

second here first of all a shout out to

1461

Henry drool who's probably know

1462

was more about mami wata from a you know

1463

in the scholarly academy then and and

1464

elsewhere then many and I do believe

1465

that among this courses for that iconic

1466

image is was a photograph it was either

1467

late nineteenth century or early

1468

twentieth taken place in a London Fair

1469

and I'm probably getting this slightly

1470

wrong but it was a vision snake charmer

1471

so I think the actual provenance of one

1472

of those iconic images is is a Fijian

1473

getting photographed in London or in

1474

some European context anyway sorry I'm

1475

forgetting the details but you'll sleep

1476

but it is mixed with the Pythian cult

1477

know exactly and I think these are the

1478

exactly the the Jana's faced

1479

conjunctures that we're talking about

1480

but the tag I want to pull out and

1481

Judy's question is do you think the in

1482

this day and age and I think it relates

1483

to the it would have to be a kind of you

1484

know the Kristin the hardcore

1485

evangelicals would have to come down a

1486

little bit about this but is there

1487

potential to deep redeploy things like

1488

Python called tsunami Walter in the

1489

service of ecological reform in this

1490

very endangered area that Judith Claire

1491

and he's worked on which are these

1492

mangrove swamps throughout West Africa

1493

and elsewhere not just a bony but

1494

obviously the Niger Delta is is packed

1495

it's the kind of paradigmatic place

1496

so I was that a question yeah in other

1497

words do you see potentiality for social

1498

activism deploying rituals or ritual

1499

resources of the of the mami wata and

1500

other like the python this is called in

1501

today in order to actually restore

1502

mangrove no growth is open up the

1503

conversation around it I don't

1504

necessarily have the idea of how to

1505

transcend what is happening but I know

1506

that we're not going to get there by

1507

only allowing like NGOs and journalists

1508

a particular idea in mind and have them

1509

do the storytelling for the region so

1510

what I'm trying to do is just let open

1511

things up and tell people actually

1512

there's so much more here to attract a

1513

different kind of spirit a different

1514

kind of intellect a different kind of

1515

potentiality to the space or to activate

1516

that internally that's what that's all

1517

I'm trying to do lots of people might

1518

have little bits of ideas that might

1519

come together to do something

1520

interesting I just don't get that

1521

perspective so and I just also think we

1522

should just you know I love it when the

1523

idea comes through me and just like I

1524

just wait for it because it's always

1525

much much better when I wait so I don't

1526

know I don't but all I know is that if

1527

we just like open up the storytelling

1528

and open up the portals around this kind

1529

of art practice and I'm not suggesting

1530

anyone has to become like animus in that

1531

way that's not that's what I'm not I am

1532

NOT that and I'm not interested in

1533

involving myself too much that however I

1534

can still have respect for someone who

1535

does conduct their life in that way and

1536

I have full respect for that I'm just

1537

not quite about myself I'm not

1538

threatened by it so yeah yeah so

1539

absolutely I just want to bring

1540

different energies and different ideas

1541

and different engines and different

1542

motivations for that space not just

1543

about oh let's talk about this problem

1544

or this problem of this program just

1545

like okay we need to talk about

1546

solutions and what else is actually

1547

there to get us out of this you know

1548

just like consistently you know

1549

consistently just feeding certain

1550

stories doesn't actually get us anywhere

1551

and so yeah so let's kind of you know

1552

let's let move the story along

1553

I'm sorry I'm really confused always do

1554

you want to pick a question I'm just

1555

like confused really pouring in and

1556

thanks so many of you my goodness oh

1557

this is a lovely question - zero liqui

1558

nigerian american evo teenager had a get

1559

involved in curating documenting my own

1560

homelands art and culture how you do is

1561

that you just go you just go when you

1562

just do it you don't ask permission you

1563

don't wait for someone to say you're

1564

allowed to you just go and you just do

1565

it and you'll make mistakes and your

1566

email it's really good to do something

1567

and then you can figure out how what's

1568

wrong and then just build and you build

1569

on it and that's the way to do it you

1570

just just you just do it i never waited

1571

for anyone I didn't know when I arrived

1572

and I didn't know what the hell I was

1573

gonna see I had no idea I didn't come

1574

with any specific idea in mind I just

1575

sort of landed and but okay what happens

1576

now and then but honestly because I

1577

literally open myself up and I'm and I'm

1578

also I'm hard worker and I trust myself

1579

I knew what had to come up with

1580

something it all came through the

1581

answers came through and can I just say

1582

that like Nigeria is one of the most

1583

amazing places to make art and to make

1584

work and to curate it's the most

1585

fantastic place so if you are able to

1586

and I would you know when it's safe when

1587

we can travel then I think absolutely go

1588

back and start worrying the masks where

1589

you're from you know evil has such

1590

amazing amazing stories amazing visual

1591

histories amazing philosophies you know

1592

and you know I always think that these

1593

are the stories that like the black

1594

world across the new world across

1595

everywhere that's what we need to hear

1596

you know I'm not interested in more

1597

stories about racism I want to hear

1598

about our philosophies but in all these

1599

different like villages and cities and

1600

these ideas that come through because

1601

that's what will furnish our identities

1602

and give us a stronger footing I don't

1603

want my density built in racism I don't

1604

care about racism that doesn't interest

1605

me I'm interested in particular ideas

1606

that exists and we had a whole continent

1607

of these ideas and I want to hear them

1608

so yeah we need you to go back to

1609

Nigeria and start filtering out and

1610

teasing out stories and and also being

1611

irreverent with them you know bring out

1612

the stories but also don't you don't

1613

have to submit to doing things the way

1614

that certain people you can you are a

1615

Nigerian and this is your culture you

1616

can do with it what you want so

1617

yeah absolutely please though when you

1618

can go back find information find ideas

1619

set up an Instagram page you know get

1620

people excited by what you find you know

1621

set up a show somewhere it can be

1622

anywhere

1623

the lovely Lake Las Biennale they did a

1624

beautiful show in like an old railway

1625

station at Lagos

1626

you know sights is so powerful you don't

1627

need a White King space necessary in the

1628

clean safe space but you know taking

1629

over top places documenting it properly

1630

sharing that with the world this is

1631

beautiful everyone not just like me what

1632

everyone can use this information and

1633

these this is the kind of storytelling

1634

that we need so yeah absolutely please

1635

go and you know and and don't wait and

1636

don't apologize and give yourself

1637

permission you don't need anyone elses

1638

promotion to do this depend so here's a

1639

question from Marla burns Thank You Xena

1640

and Andrew with regard to getting deeper

1641

into the meanings of artworks

1642

he'll back these underlying stories are

1643

there any particular people who can tell

1644

these stories and what is your role in

1645

these conversations as an artist or a

1646

curator mmm very good very practical

1647

questions so the thing with this is that

1648

it's about spending time you have to

1649

spend time yes to sublimate you know you

1650

can get an answer one day but then you

1651

go back to the Oscars different the

1652

other day because they're giving you

1653

truth in in in lines you know industry

1654

is like three dimensional four

1655

dimensional five dimensional nine

1656

dimensional you know it's like multi

1657

dimensions so you have to go and you

1658

have to sublimate and and also I think

1659

they're doing I think also if you go as

1660

an anthropologist or curator there is

1661

this desire to get what we like the

1662

truth is in a particular kind of store

1663

and I think that should actually that's

1664

part of the conversation absolutely but

1665

if you open yourself and something else

1666

comes in and you have an inspiration to

1667

to bring something else to the

1668

conversation allow it to happen because

1669

it's there for a reason you know and if

1670

something is worrying you if something

1671

keeps coming to your mind it would be

1672

wise this has nothing to do with this

1673

thing apparent

1674

allow it to and follow it because I feel

1675

like it's always if you use your

1676

intuition properly but there's a way of

1677

connecting whatever random thought is

1678

coming to a head to connect with what

1679

you are looking at there's a reason it's

1680

coming into your head so I think that

1681

you know curators need to change you

1682

know need to like I know you have to be

1683

practical you have to think about

1684

budgets you have to think about

1685

practicalities you've got it there's a

1686

huge job and it's a difficult job and so

1687

I'm not saying that it's easy it isn't

1688

but I think that if you can carve out

1689

time for a moment where you can open

1690

yourself a little very particular way I

1691

think that is should be a part of the

1692

process now I don't think it can be I

1693

don't think it can be different anymore

1694

we're moving into a different age you

1695

know and if I don't if you like read

1696

online and there's a lot more certainly

1697

nothing around the world is like more

1698

talk about and during Coppa during this

1699

time even when we think about politics

1700

everyone's talking in terms of like new

1701

energies and spirits and ideas you know

1702

this is like everything's kind of

1703

converging and we have to represent that

1704

and that has to be part of the

1705

conversation it cannot just be dry

1706

representation you know that kind of we

1707

need a different kind of conversation so

1708

and also I would say introducing say

1709

authors you know people who can do

1710

different kind of writing around the

1711

work as well you know that should be

1712

part of it I'm always interested in

1713

seeing you know you know art art written

1714

through the lens of an author has a

1715

beautiful way with words I think that's

1716

also a part of it too that's another way

1717

that we considered like shift the

1718

storytelling around it so yeah I have an

1719

appreciation for the you know

1720

anthropological approach absolutely and

1721

getting the idea through absolutely I

1722

totally agree with that and as an artist

1723

I definitely want you know the curator

1724

to listen to what I've had to say and to

1725

represent what I'm but then I'm also

1726

excited by when they can if they can

1727

take it to the next level and see

1728

something that I didn't see and I love

1729

that but I don't want it to have to be

1730

obedient to you know what people expect

1731

an encyclopedic Museum to show honestly

1732

fuck that that's that that's that time

1733

is over you know we're not gonna get

1734

anywhere with this anyway I remember

1735

when I was in the British Museum and we

1736

went and I saw the Issei bronzes and it

1737

was saying let's talk about how it

1738

changed the way we think about Africans

1739

and how we were like advance and

1740

civilize in the past or whatever I was

1741

just thinking how this has no

1742

relationship to like

1743

you know young black boys out in in

1744

London and being seen a certain way you

1745

know then behave in a certain way not

1746

feeling the part of the fabric of

1747

British society in some way I'm how do

1748

you connect that because that connection

1749

was not happening right just you know it

1750

being in the British Museum used someone

1751

writing that it doesn't that connections

1752

are made I'm thinking why do you have

1753

this work if it's if you know if it

1754

isn't liberating if it isn't liberating

1755

people how you know so we have to work

1756

harder as curators we have to work

1757

harder and make make those connections

1758

you know and do it more expansively it's

1759

not just about like oh let's get some

1760

schools it's just like no it's yes to go

1761

deeper things a bit hard about how we're

1762

going to see that's how we're gonna make

1763

this connections how we're gonna expand

1764

the storytelling so and not do it in a

1765

way that's like a little bit passion

1766

rising it's just like but I think it's

1767

hard I don't think it's easy I think

1768

it's really hard and and I think it

1769

takes everyone coming together and

1770

thinking and working and getting it

1771

wrong maybe but this is the next phase I

1772

think that's potentially really exciting

1773

because what it will do is it activates

1774

people's kind of interest in the in the

1775

collections you know I know that you

1776

know there's a collection in Brooklyn

1777

Museum that's just sitting there without

1778

a curator oh really

1779

as far as I know you know they had a

1780

wonderful curator who had to left for

1781

you know variety of reasons but you know

1782

there's that all that work there but

1783

what are you gonna do with it what are

1784

we gonna how are we going to tell

1785

stories with that work how are we going

1786

to connect that to you know you know

1787

race politics or spiritual whatever it

1788

is in that's going on in New York you

1789

know we have to think about how we're

1790

going to use that so so yeah I think

1791

that you know not just thinking of it as

1792

an anthropological exercise and a

1793

strictly a very sort of narrow or

1794

one-dimensional pedagogics er size and

1795

it's hard but and I think that and I

1796

think I could be more specific if I have

1797

like okay gala Dame asks what are you

1798

gonna do with gala day I have an idea

1799

about Kennedy by the way and Chuck way

1800

but you know I think it's very specific

1801

very specific

1802

I hope that answer your questions and

1803

I'm sorry for my what's the world my

1804

slurring no that's a great answer really

1805

just what we need to hear hmm

1806

Laurel who Burt the power of this

1807

performance Oh hasn't even thank you

1808

thank you gosh from the restitution of

1809

African objects debate to the

1810

consequences of slaughter I'm wondering

1811

if you can speak more to the agency of

1812

masters vehicles performing the Mars

1813

from the relationships in art I'm

1814

environmentalism have I talked a little

1815

bit about that enough like I might ever

1816

tender to that a bit

1817

1818

as a black American this is addy

1819

Roberson Robeson's and I'm really sorry

1820

if I'm getting everyone's names wrong

1821

I'm just like not with this Jonesy sorry

1822

as a black American I'm curious and how

1823

at the end you juxtapose the image of

1824

black Americans along with the masks how

1825

do you think the stories objects from

1826

the Niger Delta connected spiritual

1827

practices and the - we're here yes so I

1828

think you might be referring to the

1829

livid organisms section yeah I was

1830

thinking a lot about the relationship

1831

between this kind of art making and the

1832

way it's kind of like held in these

1833

encyclopedias iums and that relationship

1834

to black life and that connection that's

1835

what I was just talking about about the

1836

EFA bronzes and you know black boys in

1837

London being seen as a threat or

1838

behaving a threatening whatever it is so

1839

that connections interesting to me and

1840

also this idea that they're held there

1841

and some sort of prison as well so yeah

1842

the idea of mugshots in and like kind of

1843

like super imposing them together was

1844

interesting to me and also I didn't mean

1845

to just use African Americans it wasn't

1846

I just you know I was looking for

1847

pictures of mug shots and there were

1848

some and they happen to match some of

1849

the pictures that I found but there's

1850

one guy tricky he's British so he was

1851

there as well and Deborah shores and a

1852

mobile-phone Jamaican I'm not quite sure

1853

but there are other people I could think

1854

of who you know and also myself I was

1855

there a lot I think there's a lot of

1856

juxtapose with me in the mask all the

1857

time so so so yeah why do I Jack suppose

1858

I just feel as if ultimately we are

1859

those masks you know it's not separate

1860

from us you can try and separate it from

1861

us but actually you make it about

1862

ourselves that work is about ourselves

1863

it's a shadow self or it's like a self

1864

from the different realm you know this

1865

is this is us you know and like I didn't

1866

want to make that explicit I just think

1867

it's really barren the work is just like

1868

certain people

1869

I have a friend depot who also looks

1870

like a girl a dame ask you to say you're

1871

a bird beautiful you're a bear base and

1872

it reminds me of a guillotine mask so

1873

you know that is us you know and so you

1874

should like think this is precious and

1875

it's not precious because you know he'll

1876

only Rubenstein owns it it's precious

1877

because we're precious

1878

you

1879

okay dude equity maybe I find the

1880

economy of desire in distance with

1881

respect and curator curating an African

1882

art quite deep and would you would

1883

appreciate further elaboration yes so

1884

you know master symbols of the Altera

1885

tea in a way and people have collections

1886

in order to furnish their own identities

1887

and to signal can you be so there's a

1888

really great essay about I think it's

1889

about Jewish Americans in the 1920s and

1890

the way they were using African mass in

1891

order to bolster their own identity as

1892

you know all of New York and all of

1893

America but different at the same time

1894

so there's a very interesting

1895

relationship there so I'll try and find

1896

the essay at some point people use

1897

collections in all sorts of ways you

1898

know that says something about

1899

themselves or advertising something

1900

about themselves but I do think that

1901

also this idea of distance that you know

1902

that is what was important to certain

1903

kinds of you know Western Europeans you

1904

know you know it has to be that phrase

1905

that chap that said Sally price that he

1906

loves not to know the name of the artist

1907

so as it wouldn't be primitive art it

1908

has to be almost like an alien made it

1909

1910

which is really interesting cuz I'm

1911

thinking well maybe an alien did my kit

1912

I like I like to think that but that

1913

complicates things I'm like but it was

1914

something interesting about but yeah

1915

that's the economy but that's what they

1916

wanted it to be Asia so these people are

1917

so different from myself us it from us

1918

you know and that's kind of what and

1919

it's beautiful work - there is that -

1920

but then the conversation about their

1921

difference yeah that that becomes the

1922

metric I believe

1923

if it's to kind of like I just wonder

1924

how interested they be in the if Abrams

1925

is there's something to kind of like

1926

like classical and Roman about that work

1927

you know but the ones that are a little

1928

bit more you know what's a Picasso the

1929

dam lasts or whatever it is I think that

1930

that is maybe the the difference that

1931

they're much more interested in I don't

1932

know but I just feel as if you know it's

1933

um it's a form of possessing us

1934

by asking Peggy McInerney but asking for

1935

more storytelling about African mass you

1936

argue there is a need to remove all

1937

scaffolding whether battered European

1938

collectors technology colonialism or

1939

even the use of masked in masquerades in

1940

contemporary Africa and instead directly

1941

experience the actual energy of African

1942

lasts I'm really scared to where this

1943

question is going so in some way there

1944

are many meanings is found in our

1945

visceral experiences of their energy is

1946

that right it seems related to one of

1947

the most fascinating things he said in

1948

the film to me that perhaps master

1949

European collections chose to be stolen

1950

and taken aboard let's still awaiting

1951

their real work yeah that's where I live

1952

that's where I live with some work you

1953

know that's and I think Andrew accused

1954

me of being a modernist and I was

1955

thinking maybe I am interested in like a

1956

kind of spiritual so my thing is culture

1957

I'm actually interested in culture turns

1958

out you know i imaged a great will going

1959

lower okay there's a surface culture but

1960

that's just a performance you know a

1961

consequence or something that's going on

1962

deeper there that's them it's the deeper

1963

conversation that I'm interested in so

1964

you know culture is just like a

1965

meditative tool to go deeper and I could

1966

be anywhere in the world and I could be

1967

anyone and I would use those same tools

1968

to get to this subcutaneous layer that

1969

exists and that's everywhere that's

1970

global and I think it's a singular

1971

entity I personally believe that and

1972

cultures just like the consequence to

1973

get to that they're not you know and

1974

they are signals their signals asking us

1975

to like go to that place okay I just

1976

tell you that place is one of them hmm

1977

so fertile so interesting my father

1978

always said that you know and my brother

1979

told me both deceased now but if and the

1980

different

1981

so that if you go your gifts are

1982

actually in a gunny land you know you

1983

don't you you'll be really surprised but

1984

you know if you go back there what will

1985

come out of it and that really is what

1986

happened to me you know and it's the

1987

thing that you don't know you don't know

1988

it's not just this it's not the surface

1989

question it's this other thing that

1990

happens to you that surface magic that's

1991

that that's all surface that's not it's

1992

not even what it is the thing that's

1993

actually see you is not the thing that

1994

you think it is it's something else and

1995

it's beautiful you know but you're not

1996

you're not gonna get it if you go there

1997

you know with prescribed ideas you're

1998

not vulnerable to something you have to

1999

go and listen the practice of listening

2000

the practice of waiting the practice of

2001

respecting people that's where that

2002

comes from and it's this thing where

2003

like and I can't tell its essence and

2004

it's actually way more expansive than

2005

you realize I spent a lot of years

2006

thinking oh my god I'm just I keep

2007

making this Africa mask work but it's a

2008

to reductive is it tea reductive as a

2009

practice is it too reductive and it's

2010

just like and that's what I can see if

2011

I'm just making the world cuz that's

2012

what's coming through but if all this

2013

other stuff started to come true you

2014

know it's just like oh my gym practice

2015

which is connecting to environmentalism

2016

and globalism I'm thinking about forests

2017

in new ways and suddenly it's so much

2018

has come through through doing the work

2019

you know and to

2020

but it's a subcutaneous layer that's

2021

there you know it's not it's not the

2022

surface culture it's not even that so

2023

yeah I think it is about a deeper energy

2024

and if you go there with that in mind

2025

and people never go to Africa for that

2026

you know they might get it like I don't

2027

know Ecuador Peru and do an ayahuasca

2028

ceremony for that no one goes to Africa

2029

boga slightly scary and like too intense

2030

and you know we don't even have any of

2031

those plant medicines necessary puffin

2032

weed in Nigeria as far as I know I have

2033

asked I just feel like there is this

2034

thing that's there and everyone keeps

2035

thinking that I'm just looking at Moscow

2036

mm-hmm

2037

it's not even that is where masquerade

2038

comes from you know it's like deeper the

2039

masquerade friends even when they're

2040

virtually connected I wonder if I could

2041

go back and look at a kind of

2042

interesting question that occurred to me

2043

as well that my friend Dan de la day has

2044

posed

2045

hi Xena this is Dendi I am currently a

2046

visiting scholar at the Coleman Center

2047

and also from Nigeria

2048

I found your film absolutely fascinating

2049

I'm just now being introduced to your

2050

work so forgive me if you've already

2051

covered this before the question has to

2052

do with the title of your organization

2053

boys quarters as a Nigerian growing up

2054

myself in the immediate post colonial

2055

period in Nigeria that name brings forth

2056

the vivid powerful connotation of a life

2057

that I lived and a social structure and

2058

is one of the most pervasive legacies of

2059

colonialism in Nigeria in terms of

2060

social and class structure I was

2061

wondering if you can elaborate on this

2062

for those of our audience and friends

2063

that may not be as familiar with this

2064

sure so actually my organization is

2065

called the mangrove Arts Foundation and

2066

one of the projects underneath it is

2067

always forces projects place which is a

2068

gallery so boys quarters I set that up

2069

in 2014 and it was really because I was

2070

originally gonna set it up in our boys

2071

quarters at home and then my family's

2072

like no you're not gonna do it there

2073

because you don't want people entering

2074

the compound I was like mmm so I would

2075

just do it and so that's why I did it

2076

then I might but like maintain the name

2077

because I like this idea of like you

2078

know looking to space like the boys

2079

borders which is supposed to be the

2080

lower rung of society and understanding

2081

that our gifts come from there too you

2082

know so and we can find inspiration from

2083

that space and you know in late you know

2084

it's not always the thing about wanting

2085

to be the big man or living on banana

2086

island or you know having it's not just

2087

about that I'm saying that and I've

2088

always experienced it that way the

2089

artwork then I like to make is for I

2090

like to go to the village to make art

2091

when I'm in leg or so I was going to I

2092

was filming a motion and in Lagos Island

2093

and that's where that's where I want to

2094

make my work and I love it

2095

you know I'm bushi - I don't mind you

2096

know I don't mind but that's not where

2097

for me the artwork comes from so the

2098

idea of boys quarters and the servants

2099

quarters that's what they call it so in

2100

it actually the terrible name and the

2101

you know it's a colonial name and it's

2102

like calling a grown man or whoever

2103

lives there boy

2104

which is you know has you know resonance

2105

in America as well so the boys porters

2106

but you know people still call it that

2107

in Nigeria and they don't like worry the

2108

connotations so that's what the boys

2109

borders is but I kept there because

2110

people don't expect to find inspiration

2111

in the boys portals they expect to find

2112

family members who poor family members

2113

or they expect to find servants and the

2114

boys boarders all sorts of other things

2115

and the boys borders but they don't

2116

think it's going to be like inspiration

2117

and transformation so I wanted the idea

2118

that this place that you kind of

2119

slightly look down on it's a bit quite

2120

mysterious is actually the place where

2121

transformation can happen so that's why

2122

xena how are you holding out in turn I

2123

can keep going

2124

right can I ask can I just ask you to

2125

address another question that I just see

2126

Donna and I'm very grateful for the

2127

Global's just tell me thank you very

2128

much for your brilliant presentation

2129

why do you connect African spirituality

2130

with animism trees and mountains are not

2131

spirits it's that not an imprecise

2132

representation of African spirituality

2133

trees rocks rivers and natural

2134

formations just serve as spiritual

2135

receptacles and temporary places of

2136

abode that spurred can inhabit how will

2137

you respond to this very interesting

2138

I suppose my language kind of like did

2139

confuse that a bit you're right a tree

2140

is not a spirit it's true there is an

2141

energy within that which is that you

2142

know the tree spirit there's a water

2143

spirit there's you know but spirit some

2144

awesome habit animals but they can also

2145

jump from people to people to animal -

2146

yeah so yeah I do I do get that and say

2147

if I said but say I don't it's a bit

2148

trees and mountains and not spirits but

2149

but this is another thing I'm Leon

2150

what's a little bit interested in this

2151

is that okay there's a spirit inside

2152

that we imagine that but then

2153

I have a spirit in me but there's like

2154

yeah I don't know I think because I also

2155

have my own idea about African

2156

spirituality so there's this idea of

2157

what it is but I'm also like what for

2158

it's a huge continent secondly I have my

2159

own ideas and I'm interested in my own

2160

ideas as well and I can affect how our

2161

spirituality is rendered to by my own

2162

ideas so what is my own idea I think

2163

that

2164

well you know their but their temporal

2165

difference you know a rock is alive on a

2166

different way a tree is alive in a

2167

particular way you know but we just

2168

don't anthropomorphize them you know I

2169

think this idea of spirits as well

2170

jumping from place to place is a little

2171

bit of that it's the Bill of

2172

anthropomorphizing in its way as well so

2173

I'm thinking well maybe they have their

2174

own spirit in their own way that's our

2175

idea of a spirit but you know what is

2176

actually a true spirit

2177

you know we're talking about our human

2178

idea of what a tree spirit is a lot of

2179

trees idea of what the trees there it is

2180

you know so I'm interested in you know

2181

worrying that idea to what is African

2182

spirit you're right what is active in

2183

spirituality I'm not gonna be told what

2184

it is or isn't I want to think about it

2185

I want to meditate on it I want to space

2186

out to it planet 8i wesker and think

2187

about it

2188

you know and then figure out what that

2189

might be and I think yeah I think there

2190

is a tree's idea of what a spirit is and

2191

that our idea of what a tree spirit is

2192

just just think about the the Tolkien

2193

trilogy and and all of the films about

2194

Lord of the Rings and Treebeard and the

2195

spirits the tree spirits and that

2196

there's a broad range of ways of

2197

documenting these notions but anyway how

2198

many more questions are you up for it

2199

come for it yeah I got energy I mean we

2200

losing people rapidly is any way are you

2201

interested because people just say if

2202

that's not interesting it's interesting

2203

we can shut it down probably interesting

2204

I just I'm worried about wearing you out

2205

so it's really like an honor to have

2206

questions and anyone being interested at

2207

all in this so I'm you know I'm honored

2208

by this so um I will try and get to as

2209

many questions as possible

2210

oh cool trick would do BAM look like

2211

we're saying please continue okay cool

2212

thank you I'm Lauren Tate wiser I work

2213

in these games and FanDuel comments

2214

about the dialogue between us

2215

do you want to say it cuz I can rest my

2216

voice Andy I worked in museums and found

2217

your comments about the dialogue between

2218

the site and in the art particularly of

2219

interest as I've often argued for the

2220

discovery of new meaning and

2221

democratizing implications of objects

2222

presented in different physical contexts

2223

in my experience however this is often

2224

met with resistance from both

2225

institutions and individuals people with

2226

brilliant exhibition ideas frequently

2227

seek out an institution to attach

2228

themselves to or pitch to reinforcing

2229

colonial authority over how objects are

2230

interpreted and displayed do you have a

2231

take on why that might be and how we can

2232

begin to disrupt this norm

2233

yeah I think people go to those

2234

institutions because they need the

2235

infrastructure to get it done it's like

2236

really hard to put on a show you need

2237

the infrastructure but I think we're at

2238

a really interesting moment now or we're

2239

having to rethink all of this and you

2240

know the art world's busy they're

2241

thinking how do we do this what do we

2242

and I think it's up to people like you

2243

and those other people with brilliant

2244

ideas to now - now speak up because we

2245

got to go in - let what is art for you

2246

know is it just a stick on walls and you

2247

know and what is it really really for

2248

and let's like go into that area and

2249

just and then start to restructure from

2250

that space so we need to like enter into

2251

that again I think this is a beautiful

2252

time to be able to start to have that

2253

conversation you know and I think people

2254

I'm gonna write something about this and

2255

if you've got those ideas you should

2256

write about it - you know everyone's

2257

thinking where does the artwork go from

2258

here on now I personally think that a

2259

lot of its gonna stay the same but if we

2260

can like you know change a little bit of

2261

it and just like loosen a little bit of

2262

it and let air in then you know I think

2263

that we have to you know this is this is

2264

a moment where that can happen so yeah I

2265

mean I'd be I'm really saddened but

2266

they're probably people with the most

2267

amazing exhibition of ideas out there

2268

but they might not give themselves

2269

permission to let go out into the world

2270

and do it or they're not you know in the

2271

right positions of power and they don't

2272

have the fight in them to make it happen

2273

I don't know if there's some way of like

2274

getting together these ideas I think

2275

this the ideas are out there but just

2276

certain people aren't able to put those

2277

ideas for so I just think write it you

2278

know just put them out into the world so

2279

that we can hear it and then maybe but I

2280

think also at this time like within

2281

music we could have we think I mean

2282

there's to you a lot more open air stuff

2283

now I'm not entering a space I'm accused

2284

I'm sorry I'm very like Toby conscious

2285

and so I'm you know I don't mind going

2286

to open air spaces with low social

2287

distancing but we're gonna have to

2288

rethink all of this now so this is the

2289

this is this is the moment if any this

2290

is the moment to start to rethink how we

2291

present art and